Why Scorecards Matter In Hiring for Employer and Talent

[0:00] And here's the thing about money. Whenever I've gone just for the money, it's never worked out.
Whenever I've gone for the purpose and the reason and the work and the why behind my intention, it's always worked out because the money follows.
Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast. If you are listening to this, you are likely leading a team responsible for generating revenue.
Purpose of Full Funnel Freedom is to support people like yourself and keep your.

[0:34] Music.
Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom podcast. I'm your host Hamish Knox.
Today, I'm massively excited to have Amy Volis as my guest to talk about hiring both from the candidate side and from the sales leader side.
Amy is a sales fanatic turned entrepreneur bitten by the startup bug many years ago.
She has sold over $100 million in revenue, had two successful exits, and then she founded Avenue Talent Partners to help startups make confident hiring decisions by improving the art and science of executive sales and CS hiring without the cringe.
She's a limited partner at Stage 2 Capital, advises a handful of founders, and is writing a book about startup hiring pitfalls.
Off-duty, Amy combines her love of nature with a quirky fascination for Windex, which I'm sure we'll dive into in today's episode. Amy, welcome to Full Funnel Freedom.

[0:34] Funnels consistently reliably full.

[1:30] Thank you for having me, Hamish. I am delighted to be here and can't wait to

[1:34] talk shop. So here we are. Excellent.
Before we dive into that, I've given the audience 30,000 foot view.
Tell us the story of Amy. Tell us where you started and how you got to where you are today and where are you going?
Yeah. So it's an interesting common theme that that the things that I love the most, I never thought that I would do.
So I wanted to be James Bond when I grew up.
And when that didn't pan out, because let's be real, I would be killed immediately as a international world spy.
I got to thinking about what was important to me.
And the thing that has been a common thread through the needles of my life has been really being turned on by the human condition.
And so I found my way to enterprise sales and sales leadership, and that's my first business love.
And then stumbled into the startup ecosystem.
I've had a couple of exits. I was bitten by that bug. That's my second business love.

[2:30] And the entire journey of my career has been around the people side of things, specifically HR tech, selling products and services.
And it dawned on me that the problems tend to be the same and that sales and hiring actually aren't so dissimilar when you think about it.
And the same problems and challenges and goals I was helping my customers reach, I realized I was having some of those same problems and challenges in my own life with the companies that I worked with and watching them hire with my own hiring.
And I realized that it doesn't matter how big or small a company is, what decade we're in, the technology revolution that we're in, there's still the shortage of the ability to not just talk to somebody and interview them, but actually make a good hire for both parties involved and then stick together after the fact.

[3:29] So in 2015, after starting my first company in 2008, let's call that, I knew I was going to do it again.
Started Avenue Talent Partners to help startups nail the hiring process the first time around.
And so when I think about tech and I think about go-to-market inside of tech and I think about leadership, the fact that the shelf life is less than two years bums me out majorly.
It doesn't have to be that way. And so I cracked the code and started the company to help founders make really great, confident hiring decisions and then on the flip side for talent to help them get out of their own way to make really confident, excellent career decisions.
So here we are. Here I am.
I am delighted to be here. And yeah, there's a bunch of other stuff that I'm doing. I'm writing a book about the topic.

[4:20] As you mentioned, I think in my intro, there are some other places where I spend my time advising founders and doing the work that I do with stage two. So here we are.
I love it. And I'm not going to ask you to spill all the secrets that are in the book because we're going to encourage everybody to go check it out once it is released.

[4:35] It would be a really boring podcast if we just said, well, thanks, Amy.
Great to hear your introduction. Talk to you next time. So let's dive into this idea of hiring and hiring effectively, because there's plenty of data out there about how much it costs to hire on board and eventually let go a bad fit hire and all those kinds of things.
So feel free to go from the talent side or from the hirer side.
Where do you see the most mistakes being made in that recruiting and hiring process from your experience?

[5:10] I think it's on both sides. So we'll start actually with both sides of the equation.
This happens on the talent side, and it happens on the hiring employer side.
It's this race to the outcome. And I think that race to the outcome is actually a race to the bottom. And so what do I mean by that?
We have been taught, it has been ingrained in our brain for a really long time that I need to get to the outcome, especially in the world that I'm in with startups. ups.
It's like, oh my gosh, I have funding or this particular event happened or I'm at this stage and I need to hire. So I have to do it yesterday.
And when we are focused on just the outcome that we wish to see, we miss all of this important space in between about context.
And if I'm missing context that I'm making assumptions, by the way, the same thing happens on the talent side where where it's like, this is my dream company, or I heard I needed to work there, I'm ready to get out of my own company.
And it's this race to let me get to the offer.
And when you get to that race, or you're in that race, and it's, it's outcome focused only, like I said, you miss all this stuff in between.
And then we're using the post hire process to figure out if we're really aligned or not.
And so there's this misalignment of expectations, there's a misalignment of

[6:26] what what it's actually like to work together.
There's a misalignment of the work required to do this well.
And so I think it's about slowing down upfront.

[6:35] Because after all, slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
To get really intentional about what good looks like, about the work that's required, about intentionality around what do I like?
What lights me up in the best way? Or what lights me up in a way that it's like, I can do this, but I loathe it. On both sides of the equation.
So if I'm hiring, what's the work that I really need to get done for this to be a success? Why?

[7:02] What's driving this? Where is this coming from? What's my role in it?
What's their role in it? How do we come together to do this well?
What's not going to work? And then on the flip side, if it's my career, it's what are the things that I have learned?
What are the things that I really enjoy doing? What's really important to me?
How do I want to do this? Who is it that I want to do this with?
What kind of work excites me? There's a difference between the things that I'm really excellent at and the things that I'm good at that somebody else could do that I don't really love doing and the things that I load that I absolutely should spend zero time on.
And I find that the more I stick around, the more I realize that this intentionality and clarity, this is where the Windex bottle starts coming out.
So yes, I'm obsessed with Windex for two different reasons, literally and figuratively.
Literally, there's something about that cleaning product that I am obsessed with. I love the clarity that brings.
I like a clean house. I like a clean window.
I like a clean mirror. And it just makes me see things in a much more happier way, I guess.
There's something about cleaning where I just crank up the music and just get to it.
Anyway, that being said, on the figurative side, I can't see if I'm looking through clouded glass.
And so if I'm not clear with my expectations for what I I need on the hiring side, why I need it, what that actually looks like.

[8:29] Or I'm not clear in my career about what's important to me, what I want to do, what I don't want to do, why that matters to me, then we're merely just showing up together to try to figure it out, hoping for the best.
And like we all say, hope is not a good strategy.

[8:46] Amy, that's a great explanation of, you know, also, I love the index analogy, clarity, right? We say the leader's number one role is to create clarity.
And so what I'm curious about is when we go down this path, and I think it might be obvious, when we go down this path of racing to the finish, right?
Racing to the offer, being attached to the outcome, not the process.
What's going to end up happening for the talent, right? So the talent's like, I got to leave my current role. Oh, look, shiny. And then they jump.
From your experience, what's going to happen to them? And then also what's going to happen to that employer who's probably going to be rehiring Irene, in the near future?
I think what's going to be happening is you're going to be miserable.
You know, the likelihood of getting it wrong or misery or discomfort or a mismatch of expectations or fighting things that you didn't have to fight about because you could have talked about it up front, that exponentially increases.
And so, look, I, too, am a shinyaholic.
I am a recovering And one of the biggest lessons that I learned in my career, and it's where my scorecard methodology blossomed.

[9:56] I'm not the first person that's talked about a scorecard, nor will I be the last.
And I certainly didn't create the concept, but I made it my own because I got caught up in all of the shiniest of objects.
So here I am going along in my career, I'm happy.

[10:11] And then there's some change. And I think that's what I learned.
You know, the number one thing that I think gets in our own way beyond the shiny objects is a little world, a little word called assumptions.
And so some things were changing at the company and change is scary.
And I had not one iota of any proof that change would be good or bad for me.
It was just that, hey, things are going to start changing. And so I went into full fight or flight.

[10:43] And literally within 24 hours of this happening, I was approached by a recruiter and I took the call.
And, you know, the thing is, when I talk to people, like, I'm always open to listening.
It's like, well, why? Because, you know, the thing that I've learned the most is I'm open to listening.
But if I'm not clear, again, that Windex bottle on what I have today, how in the world am I going to be able to measure effectively what I'm going to and the fact that it needs to be if I'm going to make a move, or I'm going to make a hiring decision, it needs to be greater than where I am today.
Day and we're flying blind and we're getting seduced by the shiniest of objects how in the world can we do a good job of that and so i was no exception to that rule this was a company that threw major money at me and i got excited about that and was sending me magnum bottles of my favorite champagne after interviews and wow yeah all of these things that just made me feel so so special.

[11:50] And I remember they flew me to their office. And I remember thinking to myself, I don't really like any of these people, but it doesn't really matter because I won't really have to spend time with them because they're in a different office.
And you know what? I've been further from the truth. And I pushed that voice down, even though that voice was screaming at me on the inside, because I justified everything else around money. And here's the thing about money.
Whenever I've gone just for the money, it's never worked out.
Whenever I've gone for the purpose and the reason and the work and the why behind my intention, it's always worked out because the money follows.
The other elements are there.
And so the thing about the scorecard, when I called my husband on day one, bawling my eyes out, and that's not really how I normally operate.
Operate, I vowed to myself to figure out a different way that I wouldn't have to go through this pain again.
And that's where the scorecard came through. And literally it's in every fiber of my being. It's how I make decisions.
It's the work that we do with our customers here at Avenue Talent Partners.
And it's a big thing that I preach out loud as well. And so I think, you know, back to your question about where it goes wrong.

[13:08] And how people feel pain, I find people make assumptions.
And I find that people fly blind without really the intentionality around, well, what does good look like for me? And why is that?
Most of the time, when I talk to employers, they'll take a job description that's super old, or they'll copy and paste it from someone, or they'll get it off of some sort of community or website.
And they'll put their logo and make a few tweaks and call it good.
But if you don't know exactly why those words matter and where they stem within your organization, then that's just a waste of time because what I instruct people to do is take the job description, pour over it, map your career and your skills and your experience and your knowledge and your wisdom back to that so you can connect the dots.
Well, what if I'm connecting the dots to the wrong thing and I'm fully capable of the role, but you gave me the wrong description or it's not relevant and now you say I'm not good for the job because we talked about something else because I took you for face value and I assumed. See where these assumptions start happening.
Or we rely on hope that, you know what, it's just about selling each other.
I need to sell you on me as a candidate. I need to sell you on my role.

[14:26] If all I'm doing is selling, it's like sales. If all I'm doing is selling somebody to push them into something, chances are I'm going to have that customer turn later because we are not fundamentally aligned.
Same rules apply in hiring on both sides of the equation.
Amen. I love that. And thank you for your vulnerability and sharing that story about a bad experience you had.
What I am really fascinated about is this scorecard from the talent side.
Like, yes, I talk a lot about scorecards on the hiring side with the leaders that we work with, and you do as well.

[14:59] Let's dive deeper into this scorecard for the talent side because some of the sales leaders who are listening as you were sharing your story are nodding sadly because they had the same experience.
So when we're looking at building out this scorecard from the talent side, what are some of the key things that you share with your clients to include on that scorecard? So I think it goes into a few different buckets.
Like one, what are the behaviors that you need to see or validate or confirm that help you understand that you can work with each other?
So that comes to both verbal and nonverbal communication, how people show up.
I call it looking for the tells, right?
So it's not always what you tell me, it's what you show me.
And I pay attention to both of those things. and then it's all about the skills required to do this thing well together so if i'm an employer it's what is it that i really need um so i help startups hire sales leaders for example and customer success leaders and there are different superpowers or key traits that someone can bring to the table and it's super tempting to be like somebody has to have all of them well the last I checked nobody's perfect, right?
Are the things out of these traits that we list off.

[16:20] That you need to have, and you can only pick a quarter of them.
And the reason why you can only pick a quarter of them is that nobody is perfect.
So given the work that you need, given what it looks like, what does this actually entail?
So that's one side. And then on the candidate side, it's the same thing of doing some visualization work around when you think about your best moments, what does that look like? Who is that with?
How do you describe it? These are really important factors to consider.
It's not just about, oh, I need a sales leader to hire or, oh, I need to get a new sales leadership role.
It's what is it? How do you describe it?
Why is this important to you? Because what I do find is it's that old adage of the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Sometimes it's where we water it.
And if I haven't done any watering on my own realization of why I need what I need, what's driving this, why this, why now, What does success look like?
What does failure look like?
What are the challenging moments? How do we communicate together?

[17:21] Instead of it's all rainbows, unicorns, the vision of exits and all these things that people get caught up in.
Well, to get to that vision, to get to that exit, to get to those milestones, you're going to have to go through some hard.
And if we're unwilling or unable to understand what that is or even be willing to talk about it, guess what's going to happen?
It's going to get hard. And then you're in this weird vortex together.
And most times people feel very betrayed or they feel like it's a bait and switch.
I can't tell you how many times, and it happens every week where I am approached confidentially and quietly, Hey, look, I made a move and this isn't right for me.
And I'm a week in, I'm two weeks in, and this just isn't what I signed up for.
And my number one question is always this, where did that not show up in the interview process for you?

[18:12] And it's oftentimes the response, I already sort of knew it, but I pushed it down.
So remember my story, I pushed it down.
Funny how we know, but we ignore because we double down on those shiny objects or on the assumption or on the vision or on being sold a story that appeals to us.
But if I can't quantify and qualify that the story is true, then how on earth can I make a confident decision for my career or for my business? this. Sure.
So when we look at things like this, whether it is, you know, the best sales job the candidate ever does is on us in the interview, or whether we're focused on the shiny and we think that everything's going to be sunshine and unicorns, and it turns out to be a flaming bag of dog poop.
What are some of those like stop go moments?
Because I know scorecards are great. And sometimes if we just use them in a linear fashion, everything says go.

[19:06] Except to your point, there are those things that go, hey, wait a second, maybe pay attention to this over here.
So how do you coach your clients to weight things on the scorecard?
So even if everything lines up and it's like, yeah, this makes sense, there's the one or the two things over here that go, actually, I'm going to pass on this because there's these couple of things that say it's actually going to be a nightmare.
Well, I think that's a very personal thing for everybody involved, right? Right.
So it's like every part of the scorecard carries a different weight.
And I would be really irresponsible if I said these are the these are the Pasco elements because it's how it all comes together in the end. So I'm a big believer of the sum of our parts.
So if I have a scorecard and let's say and by the way, one of the biggest mistakes that people make with scorecards is they have too many categories.
And then those categories start overlapping into the same buckets or thematically the same.
So it's like, oh, wait a second. Let's figure out what these categories are and why they matter and how it shows up so you can easily spot it, good or bad.
So when I think about it, in my mind's eye and with my methodology, there is no such thing as perfect.
So if anything is 75% or better, it's pointing to this is good.
But you could give me something at 80% and it could seem awesome, but if the 20%.

[20:33] Off, I need to get very clear with what is that 20% and how much weight does it carry?
So if 80% of it is really good, but the 20% of it, let's call it is the person that I directly report to is a raging a-hole.
And I've heard horrible things about them and they are a super micromanager.
I'm at a stage in my career where I don't want micro, I want macro.
I want somebody that's going to be collaborative and be helpful and useful and be able to read a room or whatever it is that you need.
And you are so far off, but 80% of everything else is there.
Your life is going to be miserable every day. That's going to carry a lot of weight.
So maybe that 20% trumps all. So this is what I mean by it's a lot of different factors.
I find that it's how it all all comes together and it's why the scorecard is so darn important so that you take a very practical approach to making a very big decision.
So some of the big things have to do with people.
Some of the big things have to do with communication.

[21:38] Some of the big things have to do with what I'm inheriting is absolutely a dumpster

[21:44] fire and I have no authority to really change it or budget to change it.
Some of it has to do with a mismatch of perception versus reality from the founder of, you really don't have product market fit after all. And here's the thing about that topic.
I could be the next thing since sliced bread that makes everybody's life so much easier.
And I'm really good at it. And everyone loves me. And I'm really good at my job and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And if you don't have product market fit, no matter how great I am as a leader, I can't solve that problem for you.
No amount of sales talent or sales hiring fixes a lack of product market fit.

[22:26] Very fair. And I really appreciate you sharing those insights with our listeners, because unfortunately, sometimes we get trapped in that linear thinking and we go, well, the scorecard says, and also our brains, as you identified, can trip us up.
And by putting it down on a piece of paper, listeners, we actually can take that emotion out, as Amy said. So you'll really use that scorecard, and it's kind of like AI.
It's going to get you 80% of the way, and then you've got to think about it and use your brain on that 20% and decide, as Amy said, what's really, really important to you.
So, Amy, hiring, scorecard, awesome.
Onboarding, this is a gap that I see over and over again, especially in founders who almost want to hire and forget and just be like, yeah, you're going to sell

[23:11] stuff, right, and grow my business.
So when you're coaching founders, how do you advise them to onboard a sales leader successfully so everyone feels good and actually everything that they both think is going to happen usually comes to reality?

[23:27] It is about realizing that the party is just getting started the minute that the ink is dry on the accepted offer letter.
And so it is consistent communication from the moment that that happens through the rest of your time together.
So the best onboarding plans meet people where they are.
Sure, there is some rigor around process, right?
You have to fill out paperwork to make sure you get paid and to make sure that the legal I's are dotted and T's are crossed.
And, yes, you need to make sure that the person's equipment is ordered and that they're ready to go with the right clearance and access to tools and things along those lines.
So all of that, yeah, that's like systematic.

[24:12] But on the flip side, remember that thing that we talked about called the scorecard?
Oh, yeah. That is the holy grail, in my opinion, of, look, you're not perfect, right?
There's 25% that could be improved.
So why don't we use that as a way of figuring out, do I need to hire an executive coach for you if you're an executive leader?
How are we going to communicate together? let's talk about what day one what week one what the first 30 days the next 60 days the 90 days all of that what does that actually look like and I like whether it's for individual contributors or whether it's executive leaders to come together to talk about realistic expectations for what needs to happen to achieve success together what are the milestones that we need to think about to give both parties confidence that we're trending in the right direction.
And when you do it that way, it forces regular communication because here's the problem that people have with onboarding where it goes wrong.
There's an assumption factor. There's not enough communication.

[25:20] There's this concept that, oh, I hired you. You came from my domain.
You're really, really good at what you do.
The cream will rise to the top and you just left them to their own devices dangling in the wind.
It's kind of like what we do with our customers where I spent all this time selling you and the deal is done and now I spend no time with you or I show up 13 days before the renewal talking about your QBR.
What? It's like, and then we're worried and we're surprised that they churned.
Well, it's kind of like that same analogy about, you know, the grass being green and where you water it.
It's like any garden or any lawn. if I don't water my lawn and it's the deadest summer and it's 95 degrees and.

[26:02] And 100% humidity, and we haven't had rain in, let's call it 40 days, if I don't water my lawn, it is going to be dead.
It is going to be crispy, it is going to be brown instead of that lush green that we're all going for.
And so you can't treat a living lawn like a piece of astroturf.
That's not how it works. And the same thing with onboarding.
So what we put in is what we get back. and it's like any investment strategy.
I can't reap the rewards of an investment if I'm not willing to put my money into the market. Same thing with our employees.
And there's this concept of everboarding. We're learning and support and enablement. It never stops.
So that's how I think about it.

[26:46] I love that. Will you share with the audience a little bit about everboarding really quickly?
Because that sounds really cool and I'd love to learn more about that as I'm sure the audience would too. Yeah.
So it's this concept of, you know, onboarding is the thing that you do when you hire someone.
That's kind of like, let me get you up to speed.
Let me pave the way so you can get ramped.
And let me do that as you come into the company to get you trained, to get you acclimated, to get your sea legs, so to speak. week.
Everboarding solves for the fact that, well, it's not like I'm this piece of astroturf that stops growing.

[27:24] I am a living being piece of grass or part of the lawn.
And the thing about the lawn is maybe what I do in the fall to tend to my lawn, to get ready for the winter is going to be different than what I do in the spring.
And for me to continue to have a great lawn, I have to fertilize it.
What does this mean? This means that it's like anything that you need to take care of for it to continue to grow.
It's not a one and done scenario. So I'm never done learning, right?
I have my own company. I've had it for nine years in October. It'll be.

[27:59] And I continuously am checking myself on learning, on asking for help, on getting new tools, on learning those new tools, on doing different things because things change.
And so if I'm that way, and it's not like I'm any exception to anybody and other people are like that, how on earth is it fair or reasonable for me to think that whatever it it is that I trained you on in these first two weeks of your employment, that A, you're going to retain all of it.
B, you're going to know how to apply all of it when the time comes.
And C, that's the be all and end all. You don't need anything else, especially for executives, how we communicate together.
There should be regular communication training, skills-based communication training at the executive level.
What about executive coaching, right? So how do do we work together as an executive team?
These are things that matter, and it starts at the top.
And so if I'm onboarding a new executive and I refuse to support them after the fact, which is whatever boarding is, that's going to trickle down to the rest of the team. And let's think about a seller.

[29:10] So if they're only absorbing, I read this stat many, many years ago, I don't remember whose it was, but it struck me and it stuck with me all these years.
Out of 100% of of what we share with somebody, we're lucky if they only glean 5%. So you better hope that the right 5% was taken away from it.
What happens to the 90% that was missed?

[29:31] So it's this concept of making sure that you go back and for the things that are missed, that there's an understanding of use cases, of why it matters, of where it applies, of that was good for that one particular thing, but we have all these other things going on.
Oh, and by the way, we're going up market and you want to get promoted into enterprise sales and you have no idea what multi-threading is or security reviews or procurement or breaking down those deals.
It's that idea of being in the ring with the other person and not leaving it because you're fighting the fight together.
Love that. What an incredible understanding I've gained of Everboarding.
It just, it absolutely sings to me. I love what you say, the analogy of like water, continuing to water the grass.
And I've found that as well at the executive level, really successful executive teams are in constant communication with each other.
And so there's that buildup of trust.
So Amy, you and I could nerd out about this stuff all day long.
And we certainly have on a couple of previous conversations.

[30:35] So I have a few questions for you before we wrap up. The first one being, if you could go back and coach younger Amy, go back as far as you like and say, hey, younger Amy, in the future, you're going to have this amazing company.
You're about to be a published author.
You're also going to to have a bunch of scar tissue and bumps and bruises.
What would you coach younger Amy to say or do differently to get to the same spot, but with a little less scar tissue and fewer bumps and bruises?

[30:57] To not assume and to really lean into understanding without jumping to a conclusion.
I like that. Say more about that. If I think back on my sales career and where I grew up in it and the times and they have changed, it was like, you're lucky to have this job.

[31:18] Go do your job. Sure. And just get it done.
Get to the end result. And I think sometimes when you come up that way, it's very scary to raise your hand and say, I don't know, or you don't always feel like you have a voice, or you're not really sure how you entirely fit in, or you're waiting for a different shoe to drop.
And I think, you know, that really promotes assumptions, right?
Like I don't have agency or I didn't have the courage to ask questions to understand.
And so what would happen is I would assume.
And that has been behavior that I've worked really hard to undo over the years.
When I assume, I get myself in trouble.
And when something feels weird or off, instead of just jumping to an assumption, I try to use that as a signal.
I don't always get it right, but my gosh, am I way better now at it than I ever was.
I try to use it as a signal to lean into some curiosity to ask a question so that whatever it is that I might suspect that I'm validating it or that I'm seeing it through a different lens and a different perspective.

[32:30] That I'm not now getting myself into trouble because I'm making a decision or I'm responding to something that isn't even the case.
And I will say more times than not, when I do that, there's always more to the story.
And so I think in a world where we're so quick to jump to an assumption or to vilify something or to take it for face value or to make a decision off of an assumption, there's so much other opportunity left behind.
And I just, I've learned Learn that lesson more than one occasion the hard way.
And if I could absolutely go back and tell younger Amy to chill out, I absolutely would on the assumption side.
Got it. Love it. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that with us, Amy.
I am curious, as a lifelong learner, what have you read, watched, listened to, whether recently or in the past, that you would encourage the sales

[33:23] leaders listening around the world to check out as well? all.
I am absolutely loving, loving, loving, loving the Mel Robbins podcast.
She is absolutely a force.
And yeah, I stop, drop and listen, folks. Huge fan of Mel's.

[33:42] I do the high five habit every morning, actually. So you and I are aligned on that one.
Amy, you have given us such such amazing ideas, insights today on how to scorecard effectively both from the hiring side and from the talent side, how to onboard and how to everboard effectively.
What do you have as a closing bit of wisdom, a final thought or something to

[34:03] plug? The floor is yours.
So I would be remiss if I said that I am not going to be proud and excited to get this book on shelves, which will be hopefully on shelves by the end of the year.
And it is really breaking down the most common pitfalls that happen in hiring and how they show up and how to choose differently.
So I am very much excited about that. And if anybody has really enjoyed what we've talked about, follow along.
There's more where this came from called LinkedIn.
And I'm very grateful there. there. And obviously, if anybody is listening to this and they need help hiring a VP of sales or CS, my hotline's always on.
Awesome. Awesome. We will put links to that in all the show notes.
Amy, I had a blast hanging out with you today. I look forward to carrying on our conversations offline.
Thank you for being a guest on Full Funnel Freedom today.
Right back at you, Hamish. I appreciate you. I hope this was helpful for anybody that was listening. Thank you for letting me wax on. on. This was lovely.

[35:06] Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Full Funnel Freedom podcast.
You can continue to support us by leaving us a review and a rating, sharing this episode with a couple of sales leaders in your network who you care about.
I'd love to connect with you. I'm easy to find Hamish Knox on LinkedIn.
Also, if you'd like a free 15-minute call with me, go to www.hamish.sandler.com forward slash how to Sandler until we connect on the next episode go create full funnel freedom.

[35:39] Music.