Transcript

The Power of a Smile in Sales

[0:00] Goodness sake as basic as it sounds a smile is the most non-threatening no have a good photo on your linkedin so they they know who they're coming to see so i'm coming to reception i'm looking for somebody whose photo i remember not a stranger because strangers are danger right and my sort of neuroscience influence sales processes do that connection get them comfortable uncomfortable brains don't buy, Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast. If you are listening to this, you are likely leading a team responsible for generating revenue.
Purpose of Full Funnel Freedom is to support people like yourself and keep your.

[0:46] Music.

[0:46] Funnels consistently, reliably full.
Welcome to the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast. I'm your host, Hamish Knox.
Today, I am delighted to have Simon Hazeldine as my guest.
Simon works internationally as a keynote and conference speaker, sales transformation consultant, and as a sales and negotiation trainer.
He's spoken in over 30 countries and his client list includes some of the world's largest and most successful companies.
Simon has a master's degree in psychology, is the best-selling author of nine books that have been endorsed by a host of business leaders, including multi-billionaire business legend, Michael Dell, and is the co-founder of the UK's leading sales podcast, The Sales Chat Show.
Simon, welcome to Full Funnel Freedom.
Thank you very much for having me, Hamish. Great to be here.
So I've given the audience the 30,000-foot view, who you are, what you do.
Take us down a level. Tell us the story of Simon and how you got from where you were to where you are today.
Yeah so i i think uh like quite a lot of people uh that i meet in the world of sales i wasn't necessarily planning on sales as a career uh left university didn't really know what to do did a couple of different jobs and then kind of by accident ended up in sales somebody somebody gave me a piece of advice which is kind of amusing now you know you should be in sales you talk a lot which is probably not correct.

[2:14] But yeah, so I got into sales and fortunately for me, got into a good FMCG, Fast Moving Consumer Goods drinks company, 18 years there, became head of the sales academy and some other roles.
Last 14 years, had my own consultancy and training business, helping my clients more sales more often with more margin, helped sales leaders to build high-performance organizations that people want to belong to.

[2:42] I love it. And we will certainly touch on your books because you and I are both neuroscience nerds. I have the model of a human brain in my office.
So that's really what's with us. Where I want to start, though, is this talk of margin.

The Importance of Margin in Sales

[2:56] Because as sellers, and I remember when I was in sales, I didn't think about margin, right?
I thought about what was the number on the order sheet or what was the number on the agreement.
And so when you're having conversations with the sales leaders that you support, how does margin come up and what are the typical frustrations that they're facing when it comes to margin in their business?
Always margin will appear to be under pressure.

[3:21] Customers will always, I guess, be attempting to get the very best value for money for them.
And often that will equate to trying to get the price as low as low as possible um i spend a lot of time working with sales people on negotiation a provocative statement most sales people don't make great negotiators is my general view there's no reason why they shouldn't but their comfort zone is selling and and a lot of the time they were saying you know help us to negotiate the price help us to negotiate this help us to keep the margin up well good selling needs to come before good negotiation selling you know finding finding out what the customer needs, convincing them of the value, what you've got to offer, and then negotiation, agreeing the terms upon which that will take place.
So the better the value perception, the value proposition, however you want to quantify that, then they'll be less price sensitive and the margin pressure, I think, will lessen.
It's not like it's going to go away necessarily, but they're convinced you're the right choice.
The product, the service, the offering is correct. So maximize on that value, show the business value, the personal value, lower the risk to them of purchasing.

[4:43] And they'll be happier to pay that higher price.
But I think it's really important from a KPI or objective or targeting, that you, we used to call it the tension triangle when I was in fast-moving consumer goods because we were equally compensated for the volume we sold, the overall revenue, the dollars, the pounds, but also the margin.
And that, I think, helps salespeople to think about their territory or to think about their customers as their own business and make better decisions.

[5:19] Yeah, the idea of compensating purely on revenue or purely on dollars closed is crazy. crazy. We had a client years ago in the Midwestern US and they had a salesperson who sold $5 million of stuff, which was very good.
That was a very good year at cost.
Yeah. So the comp plan changed dramatically the following year.
That salesperson made out like a bandit and the company was actually underwater.
Once they paid the commission, they ended up underwater in in terms of, you know, they made negative margin on those sales because the seller just went out and did did top line instead of thinking about about margin.
I'm curious about something you just said around risk, because this is something that a lot of sales leaders are talking about.
They're hearing it from their teams we got more people on the buying side everyone's trying to do no it's their decision how do we coach our sellers to make decisions less risky for the buyer or reduce that perception of risk yeah so there's there's always a risk when we all buy you know there's a there's a risk but depending on either the financial value of what they're buying or the strategic importance of it to the business, the risk perception of the customer will be much higher.

[6:45] So I would say when we sort of have a little framework or like a value proposition, how do we lower the risk?
You know, testimonial, case study, pilot, demos, you know, to lower the risk, but also who are likely to be the more risk averse people in the buying decision or legal obviously are designed you know so if if you know if you know legal are going to be involved in the purchasing decision and you're not interacting with them then you've left it you've left it kind of late but i think also identify you know who the people who have the most influence across the decision making unit or the buying unit and make Make sure that where we can and can't always get to these people.
I understand that sometimes they're kind of hard to get in front of, but you've got to get some time with them and to build their confidence and be seen, you know, frequently.

[7:44] And then you become more known. And I think show that you've done it before.
Clients, you know, very popular now is using stories as part of selling.
Very powerful way. way Robert Cialdini would refer to this as social proof you know show them you've done it before you know we we sometimes will you know in pictures we'll say here's here's some of our logos everybody shows you the logos you choose one you choose two we'll connect you directly with that customer we won't be on the call ask them anything you want to know and you know to be fair I would say.

The Role of Social Proof in Reducing Risk Perception

[8:25] Two times out of 10 people take us up on that offer but because you've made that offer it gives them that well okay i i know this guy's a sales guy so he's not going to connect me with somebody who they've done a really bad job for but right you know they they they they you know a buyer similar to them as well and that that can be a powerful way to reduce but also as we know the more people involved in the decision the less likely it is to go ahead very true i when i sold software as service.
And, and, you know, at some point, I'd be talking to my buyer and, and I'd say, Hey, I bet legal's got to get involved.
And they kind of roll their eyes, be like, Oh, yeah, legal. And I said, Well, we have a we have a timeline, like you shared with me, you need this platform up and running by this date.

[9:11] How do we get legal involved? And so by by preempting it, and that raised the credibility with my direct contact.
And yeah, of course, legal wanted to redline things. That's their incentive.
That's what they're paid to do. Got it.
Ultimately, the things that they were looking to redline were pretty minor and we were able to get things back of greater or equal value for every concession that we made.
And so ultimately we ended up with case studies, testimonials, et cetera, et cetera, which is really, really powerful.
So I love that you brought up that idea of social proof because ultimately our buyers just want a little bit of comfort.

Overcoming Sales Team Mindsets and Getting Unstuck

[9:47] They don't necessarily want to talk to our current clients. um i'm i'm shocked that two out of ten is even that high from my experience it's much less than that so simon let's take this a little bit forward and this ties risk ties into the brain um and our brains are wired to keep us safe which usually means stuck so when you're working with sales leaders and helping them with their teams how do we number one get our sales teams unstuck from certain mindsets that they might have about the market about the pricing about the product whatever whatever it might be.

[10:21] Yeah, I think one thing sales leaders listening in, there's Australian neuroscientist David Rock, works in the US, I think now. He has a great model.
They're just good for leaders, I think, to know about the SCARF model, you know, his research into how the brain, you know, positively, negatively responds.
So it's status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness.
So if people Google that and have a look at that, I think that's a good how to manage your people effectively.
Some good, there's some good input there.

[10:53] I think we are all creatures of habit.
Like you say, you know, our brains are kind of going to be hardwired to certain ways of behaving.
And my research when I was doing NeuroCell, my book on neuroscience, had Dr.
Colin Wallace as my technical advisor. you know colin will say brain has not changed much in a hundred thousand years so it's still on the lookout for saber-toothed tigers and fear and so certainty and doing the same thing feels safe and that's probably why change what 75 of change initiatives kind of fail you know so i first thing i think is don't underestimate how stuck people can get but then you're probably what you're what i think you're trying to do for through coaching for example is you're trying to get what might be largely unconscious processing surfaced and it's probably emotional and instinctive probably 95 percent of our processing is below the surface of the water and get the prefrontal get it exposed to the prefrontal cortex and you start to do some you know analysis and And they kind of go, oh, yeah, yeah, actually.

Surfacing unconscious processing through coaching

[12:11] I've had the great privilege of managing several psychic salespeople over the years who will say to you, why didn't you mention that particular promotion or whatever to the retailer or to the customer? And they say, I just know.

[12:25] I just know they wouldn't want it. And I say, I said, you know, one guy, I said, Bruce, this is the first time I've managed a psychic.
And he said, I'm not psychic. And I said, I know you're not psychic.
Like why didn't you ask so i don't think i said yeah we didn't know did you you don't know you don't you don't know and i am very fond when i'm coaching salespeople around deals and all sorts of things you know is this person the key buyer is this person have they got the sign off yeah i think so okay do you think so or do you know so yeah and that is also the other you know and i've I've managed enough salespeople, but the excuses, territory's bad, marketing materials are poor.

[13:11] Market is depressed.
Good salespeople create their own economy i think i'm not saying ignore ignore the realities of what's going on but results and excuses you know you can't have both the first guy i sacked um he'd uh i was a lot younger than him as well and you know his previous manager had problems with him and i gave him some pretty tough feedback after a ride along sales visit and he got really hostile you know how dare you say that to me i've been you know i've been doing this job for 10 I've got 10 years experience, he said.

Results vs excuses in sales performance

[13:46] And I probably shouldn't have said this, but what just came out was, have you?
Or have you just had one year that you've repeated 10 times?
Because you don't look like a 10-year-old veteran to me, right?

[13:59] So yeah, that conversation didn't go too well.
So I regret saying how I said it. I don't probably regret what I said, really, if I'm honest.
And my experience is when you do get those reactions, you've really probably touched on the truth, right?
That's that reaction we all have is we touch on the truth. And the sales leaders that I work with, one of the things that I share with them and share their teams is until it comes out of the buyer's mouth, we know nothing.
That's the mindset. So we can believe, right?
We're allowed to believe whatever we want. I believe Simon is the ultimate decision maker. Okay.
We'll go out and figure out if he is or not by asking a bunch of good questions.
And if he's not, that's okay too.
Then you can start to To build out whoever the buyer buying group is.
So until your buyer says it, sales leaders, your salespeople know nothing.
And when you hear, like Simon said, I think challenge them on that. Yes.

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[14:58] Free offer for listeners of the Full Funnel Freedom podcast.
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Now back to the show.

Effective Communication: Understanding the Buyer's Brain

[15:32] So Simon, let's carry on this neuroscience forward because I'm a huge fan of it as well. Well, so we get our sellers locked in, right?
They've got the right mindsets. They've got the growth mindset.
They're willing to go out and ask the tough questions, even if it makes them feel comfortable.
Well, they're still selling to human beings. So those human beings have their own hopes and fears and dreams and worldview.
So how do we support our sellers in more effectively communicating with those parts of the brain on the buyer's side that haven't developed in 100,000 years or so?
Yeah. So some of this, some of this is proof of, of the things that a lot of sellers will say, how important relationship is, you know, people do still buy from people and those sorts of things.
Um, but I think there are certain verbal and nonverbal things when you meet people for the first time, you know, you don't get too close because that's threatening and goodness sake, as basic as it sounds, a smile is the most non-threatening.

[16:33] No, have a good photo on your your linkedin so they they know who they're coming to see so i'm coming to reception i'm looking for somebody whose photo i remember not a stranger because strangers are danger right and my sort of neuroscience influence sales processes do that connection get them comfortable uncomfortable brains don't buy so comfortable the normal small talk it's a very very important part of human interaction and and um a couple of psychologists called it the human dog sniffing act which is a bit a bit of a bit of a gross example but we're kind of getting a feel for each other and we just get you know and then settling in you know so uncomfortable brains don't die so we got to get them comfortable asking them questions get them thinking that That'll get their brains engaged.

Conversational Selling: Building Trust and Buyer Safety

[17:27] And, you know, they're expecting a pitch. So don't.
Or give the buyer control of the meeting by saying, what I'd really like to do is begin by asking you some questions.
And then if I think we might be able to help you, maybe we could talk about.
So de-risk it. Absolutely.
When I'm prospecting, I'll often use language like, it'd be great to have a chat.
Be great to grab a coffee chat you know like lowering the perception of risk that they're not going to get a.

[18:01] A bit of humor sometimes i sometimes put ps i promise to leave all of my powerpoint slides at home or and humor is a great one as well um that can also just just get people people kind of can't but like don't rush in get the customer settled get the brain comfortable get them feeling all the while good a good salesperson has done for centuries right but there's a piece of research into virtual negotiation that if people indulged in five minutes of that casual conversation the commercial outcomes of the negotiation was better the parties trusted each other more and were happier with the result than like control groups who would just go bang hamish right let's do a deal yeah we're dealing with a human being and if you're selling virtually, get your cameras on, or I will come and hunt you down and haunt you for the rest of your life.
Like, for goodness, the number is there, they're not on camera, and I'm just like, drives me nuts, right? Get on camera.

[19:04] It's mind-boggling that we forget that we're still selling to humans, right? We're all human, right?
We're still human, and we need to create buyer safety, right?
We have to make our buyer feel safe because, as you said, there's the stranger danger aspect.
There's also the negative experience with salespeople, right?
Like we've all had that negative experience with salespeople and we're all salespeople.
It doesn't matter what we're selling.
So our buyer is going in, even if they've seen my photo on LinkedIn or I've sent them a nice email or whatever, they're still in the back of the mind.
They're like, when's the other shoe going to drop, right?
When's Hamish going to ask for my wallet? When's he going to do this?
And I found, and my clients have found that when they can just sit and have a conversation, like they're two mates out for a pint, like awesome.
They end up with much better results and they negotiate less because the buyer ultimately trusts them.
There was some Forrester research, C-level executives, 88% of the C-suite said they want to have a conversation, not a sales pitch for sales, for sales related meetings.
So I think it's conversational selling for want of a better word is, is, is where we need, where we need to get to. Thank you.

[20:17] Amen. You and I are completely aligned on this, Simon. And I love that you brought up David Rock.
I have a four book hall of fame and Your Brain at Work by David Rock is in my four book hall of fame.
Absolutely phenomenal book, sales leaders. If you have not picked it up, highly, highly recommend and go check out The Scarf Model. Was that what it was?
Yeah, that's on that book is on my bookshelf behind me.
That's another vote, another vote for Your Brain at Work by David Rock. Love it, Simon.
Well, we could talk and nerd out about this stuff all day long, but you and I have things to do and our listeners have things to do.
So as we're transitioning into our final few questions today, I'm absolutely loving this vision you have of creating buyer safety, going in and having conversations.
Conversations, I'm curious if you could go back and coach younger Simon, go back as far as you like, and you can say, Hey, younger Simon, you know, in the future, you're going to be this world renowned speaker, bestselling author.
You're also going to have a lot of scar tissue and bumps and bruises.
What would you coach younger Simon to do to get to the same place, but with fewer bumps and bruises and maybe a little less scar tissue?

[21:19] What, what younger Simon was very, very very fortunate to get was, uh, as after about 18 months in, in the drinks industry, fast moving consumer goes, I actually got the best coach.
The guy is a guy who was coaching. I think before coaching was really invented Hamish.
And he was the guy who actually turned me from being a bit of a wet behind the ears, like overconfident, you know, my, my, my level of confidence far exceeded my competence.
And he was the guy who managed to get those more equally aligned.

[21:56] What he was really good at was challenge, challenge and support, challenge and support, challenge and support, challenge and support.
And I think some of the times, you know, you don't know as much as you think you do.
So, like, always, always be learning.
I'd always had a strong learning orientation, but Philip, the guy, was really good at finding out.

[22:18] Where your strengths, find your strengths, leverage your strengths, find your limitations, manage around them or, or overcome them.
And I'd have probably said, um, you should have got a job with a really good organization.
I got four weeks of residential sales training and I did not realize how fortunate I was at the time.
I just thought that was what everybody got. And that was the foundation.
So I think I'd have said, get in with a really good organization and get a really really good manager who can coach as a priority in your sales career.
And I've probably told younger Simon to have done that two or three years faster than he, than he did.
Cause you know, he was, he was an awesome, he probably sadly passed away a couple of years ago, but he was instrumental in turning me into something resembling a decent salesperson and account manager.

[23:10] Well, I love that story. And I love that story of a mentor and a, and an amazing manager.
I, I believe that pretty much anyone who has any sort of success in sales had someone like you had who challenged them and supported them simultaneously.

[23:26] Now, Simon, you are a bestselling author, and we will certainly link to your books in the show notes.
And aside from your brain at work, curious, what else have you read, watched, listened to, whether recently or in the past, that you'd recommend to sales leaders listening check out as well to further their own learning and development?
Yeah it's um i wouldn't say it's necessarily one particular book or one particular podcast we were kind of aware of things like ai and the technology but with chat gpt i think it just sort of it's gone over some tipping point and i really want to learn more about how the that technology may be able to empower sales people and sales teams so you know you can get ai powered you know know software that will sit over your pipeline analyze your deal hygiene your relationship you know it's going to do so many things and i think it particularly with complex sales there's always going to be a very strong human element i can't see that that being automated anytime soon transactional yeah so it's going to be the interface between the human brain and the the the artificial brain.

[24:35] For want of a better expression, I think.
So I'm listening to, you know, looking for people who are experts on that, finding out a lot, taking some courses myself on AI to just kind of learn what 2025, 26, 27 is going to mean.
Because I think tech agility, data agility, is going to become an increasing competence component.

Utilizing CRM Dashboards and AI in Sales

[25:00] For sellers. You know, it's, you can get some really good CRM dashboards and use your analysis.
And sadly, a lot of people don't use it to its fullest, but yeah, use the tech.
That's my, that's my big development focus for me for 20, for this year, 2024.
I love it. My friend, Jordan Ledwin has a newsletter called the AI sales guy, which I subscribe to, and I would highly recommend that's a really good one for me, me the the whole ai thing you made this great point about it's that interface between the machine and the human brain because we get this uh you know well you're you're not going to be replaced by ai you'll get replaced by a human using ai well if we're all using ai who gets replaced right like we're all so it's to me it's that the the individuals who don't abdicate a hundred percent right ai is great for like 80 but it's that 20 where sellers really differentiate differentiate themselves to their buyers and really prove that value, in my opinion.
So I love that you're going down this journey of AI.
And I'm curious to collaborate with you offline on how that all goes for you.
Yeah, sure. Let's do it. So Simon, last question for you.
You have given us plenty of amazing insight, ideas and insights and great wisdom today.
If you had a closing thought, a final bit of wisdom or something to plug, the floor is yours.

[26:21] Yeah, what I'd say is to all sales leaders, there's probably three questions to repeatedly be asking your team, coaching your team around and getting them to be asking.

[26:33] And it's like, is the pipeline clean? There's no rubbish in there.
If it's dead, it's dead. Take it out.
Don't play this political nonsense of leaving off a million dollars in and all that stuff.
Have conversations. Is it clean?

[26:46] Data's clean. Is it healthy? It's moving. you've got you can see it moving from stage to stage every opportunity's got a next action clearly identified and is it sufficient if your quota's five million and you close one in two the maths is easy right you need coverage of 10 10 million so is it clean is it healthy is it sufficient and i think that that also helps with when do we really need to refocus sales people on top of funnel activity and you you know and then use your data use your data because you're better able to then predict what's likely to to happen so yeah though i think those and switching between forecast and pipeline reviews yeah so that you're not always current quarter because you then you finish the quarter either you know the mad the mad scramble and then you dust yourself off and you start with a fairly bad looking next queue so you know i think always switching and yeah if they folks want to connect with me on linkedin i post most days and share uh sales chat show podcast episode updates and that sort of thing it would be great yeah great if they just let me know full funnel uh food and podcast and i know because you just linkedin you have to now separate the.

Connecting with Simon on LinkedIn for Sales Insights

[28:03] The people who who say they've looked at your profile but clearly haven't i was offered i was was offered sales training uh last week looking at your profile i think we could really and i kind of i'm not saying i wouldn't benefit from some sales training but sure i think we might have got that covered you know fair enough so uh sales leaders who are listening uh we will put simon's linkedin profile link in the show notes so if you'd like to connect with them remember when you put the request out say you heard about him on the full funnel freedom podcast podcast and he's much more likely to connect with you.
Simon, I had an absolute blast hanging out with you today. I really look forward to staying connected offline. Thank you for being a guest on Full Funnel Freedom today.
Absolutely. My freedom, Hamish. Good luck and good selling to everybody out there.

[28:51] Sales leaders, that was an amazing conversation for me with Simon.
As you've heard me talk about before, I'm a complete neuroscience nerd.
So I could have chatted with him for probably the whole rest of the day.
But all of us have things to do.
Wouldn't have made that an effective use of anybody's time. So here's my takeaways from today's visit with Simon.
First thing, here's your trigger point for coaching your sellers.
The minute you hear a seller say, I think.
I think this or I know this. That's the that's the next one. Right. So think.
Right. Think is the OK. Well, go out and find out. Go ask the question.
And no, no is the more dangerous one. Right.
Well, I know this. Well, as we said during the episode, until it comes out of your buyer's mouth, we know nothing.
So whenever you hear a seller say, well, I know this.

[29:46] Next question to ask is, hey, that's great, Hamish.
When did your buyer say that to you and if the answer is well they didn't then it's a belief and that's okay right we're allowed to believe whatever we want we just need to go out and ask ask those questions the other key takeaway that ties into that is this coaching idea that simon talked about with his mentor of challenge and support challenge and support i love this idea idea of we're going to challenge our seller and then we're going to support them with growing in increments.

Challenge and support: Developing successful sellers

[30:21] That is ultimately how we develop really successful sellers and the ones who, when they do move on, because they probably will, they're going to talk about us the way that Simon talked about his mentor.
Hey, I had this great manager who really believed in me, really really supported me, really coached me well, and they also really challenged me.
And the last big takeaway for all of you sales leaders listening today is this idea of.

[30:51] Selling to the brain in the way of understanding that the brain is wired to look for danger so whenever we're talking to one of our sellers especially if they're a newer seller or when our seller is going out and talking to a buyer whether they're a first conversation ever with this buyer or whether they've been a long-term client there is that little bit in the back of the buyer's mind or in or our team members mind of when's the other shoe going to drop when's the the bad thing that I'm afraid of happening going to happen.
So we need to use our language and our sellers need to use their language to keep the buyer feeling at ease.
I've been using an analogy recently with my clients in training sessions and in coaching around a deer.
Picture your buyer like a deer and you've got some grain in your hand and you want to approach that deer and have that deer deer eat out of your hand.
Well, all of us can picture that deer and how afraid they are initially.
And even as we get closer and closer and closer, and maybe we've even got our hand right under the deer's nose, and the deer could just duck their nose down and start eating that grain out of our hand.
If we do something that startles that deer, they're gone.

[32:09] Same thing with our buyers. We might might have spent 6, 9, 12, 18 months building rapport, qualifying, getting to know the entire buyer ecosystem, and then our seller says or does something that makes the buyer feel uncomfortable, and now that sale, if it's not lost, has been pushed back significantly.

[32:32] Let me know what your biggest takeaway was on our social media. Thanks for listening.
Share Share this episode with a sales leader or two in your network who you care about.
And until we connect on the next episode, go create full funnel freedom.
Thanks for listening to today's episode of the Full Funnel Freedom Podcast.
You can continue to support us by leaving us a review and a rating, sharing this episode with a couple of sales leaders in your network who you care about.
I'd love to connect with you. I'm easy to find, Hamish Knox on LinkedIn. in.
Also, if you'd like a free 15 minute call with me, go to www.hamish.sandler.com forward slash how to Sandler until we connect on the next episode, go create full funnel freedom.

[33:17] Music.